Notable Quotes 2009-2010
2010 June 23: Maxine Lipeles is quoted in an Emissourian.com article, “Ameren Defends Proposed Landfill.” The web edition of The Missourian posted a story about AmerenUE’s plans to construct a large waste management facility at its Labadie power plant and the company’s willingness to sit down with its critics and discuss the disposal requirements of the tons of waste material-fly ash, bottom ash and scrubber waste that is generated each day as a byproduct of burning coal at the Labadie facility. One of those critics is Maxine I. Lipeles, co-director, Interdisciplinary Environmental Clinic at Washington University School of Law. She has been retained by the Labadie Environmental Organization (LEO) which questions why Ameren would want to locate the facility in a floodplain. “They say they conducted a five-year internal study evaluating other options and locations. We want to see that study,” Lipeles said. “To put this type of facility in a flood-plain is a major concern. We want Ameren to look at other options not just the cheapest option.”
2010 May 12: Robert Kuehn is quoted in The Guardian online (UK) blog about Louisiana politicians, the BP oil spill, and a legislative bill prohibiting law school clinics from filing lawsuits. Although the bill would apply to clinics doing work in civil litigation, domestic violence, and juvenile law, says CLEA president Robert Kuehn of Washington University School of Law, “the target is clearly environmental-law clinics, especially Tulane’s.”
2010 May 11: Robert Kuehn commented in a Newsweek online article, “Louisiana Considers Bill to Restrict Lawsuits” in The Gaggle blog about legislation that would prohibit clinics receiving any government funding from suing state agencies, companies, or individuals for failing to comply with state or federal laws or for damages. CLEA president Robert Kuehn of Washington University School of Law says “the target is clearly environmental-law clinics, especially Tulane’s.” In its letter, the Clinical Legal Education Association warns that in addition to kowtowing to big business, the Louisiana bill threatens to undermine legal education by failing to provide law students with the hands-on work that the American Bar Association requires accredited schools to provide.
2010 April 26: Andrew Martin is mentioned in The Wall Street Journal online and its WSJ blog regarding the “Wacky Ninth Circuit.” Andrew D. Martin, a professor of political science at Washington University in St. Louis, told the NYT that the Second and Third Circuits “are about as far left as the Ninth.”
2010 April 23: Andrew Martin contributed to the discussion in The New York Times article “‘Liberal’ Reputation Precedes Ninth Circuit Court.” Outside experts who have examined the circuit for quantitative evidence of its leanings say that over all, it is indeed the most liberal circuit―but not by all that much. Andrew D. Martin, a professor of political science at Washington University in St. Louis, said that his research suggested that the Second Circuit, based in New York, and the Third Circuit, based in Philadelphia, “are about as far left as the Ninth,” while Bush appointees had “caused the Ninth Circuit to drift back to the right a little bit.” Other circuits, especially the Fifth Circuit, based in New Orleans, and the Sixth, based in Ohio, are on the right. “The differences correspond to the local politics of those areas,” he said, and he argued that the attacks on the Ninth Circuit were politically motivated.
2010 April 8: Gregory Magarian is quoted in a news item on KTVI-TV and Fox2now.com (St. Louis) “Missouri’s Lt. Governor To File His Own Suit Challenging Health Care Law.” Lieutenant Governor Peter Kinder is planning to file a federal lawsuit to stop the new federal health reform law and won’t use any state money, instead looking for private contributions to help fund it. At least one constitutional expert, Greg Magarian of the Washington University Law School, believes Kinder’s attempt to challenge the law has little chance of succeeding. The constitution allows congress to regulate interstate commerce, and precedent has established nearly every form of economic activity falling under that provision.
2010 April 8: Peter Joy commented on The St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, “House Backs Measure that Cracks Down on DWI Offenders.” In response to Missouri legislation that would allow the police to obtain blood samples without a warrant from suspected drunk drivers, Peter Joy, a law professor at Washington University, said he expected that aspect of the bill to be challenged.
2010 April 3: Robert Kuehn is quoted in The New York TImes article, "School Law Clinics Face a Backlash." “We’re seeing a very strong pushback from deep-pocket interests, and that pushback is creating a chilling effect on many clinics,” said Robert R. Kuehn, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis, citing a recent survey he conducted that found that more than a third of faculty members at legal clinics expressed fears about university or state reaction to their casework and that a sixth said they had turned down unpopular clients because of these concerns. [view article]
2010 April 1: Peter Joy commented on The St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, "ACLU Program Will Protect Muslims in FBI Questioning.” In response to the local FBI’s aggressive and constant questioning of a naturalized citizen born in Pakistan, who is a devout Muslim student earning his master’s in environmental engineering at Washington University, the ACLU of Eastern Missouri is launching its Muslim Rights Project, the first of its kind in the nation. Critics of the FBI say its approach with Muslims in the United States has been manipulative, but Peter Joy, director of Washington University Law School’s Criminal Justice Clinic and professor of legal ethics, said that while the FBI may have made mistakes with Muslims in the past, its more recent approach of focusing on positive outreach has helped. “[T]hey may have focused so much on crime prevention that everything sounded accusatory rather than community building,” Joy said. “But those were early missteps.”
2010 March 27: Robert Kuehn commented in The Baltimore Sun(MD) article, “Lawmakers Threaten to Stall UM Funding Over Poultry-Farm Lawsuit.” A suit by the University of Maryland's environmental law clinic that accuses poultry giant Perdue Farms and a small Eastern Shore farmer of pollution has angered Annapolis lawmakers, who are threatening to hold up hundreds of thousands of dollars in the university’s budget. Robert R. Kuehn, president of a national association of clinical law educators, said the legislators’ move is the latest political backlash against unpopular legal actions brought by such clinics. Kuehn, co-director of an environmental law clinic at Washington University in St. Louis, said the move was “an attempt to scare or intimidate the clinical law program.”
2010 March 23: David Law commented in a KMOX.com (St. Louis) article “President Obama Signs Health Care Reform Bill, States say, not so fast.” Regarding legal challenges by states to the new federal law, David Law, who teaches constitutional law at Washington University, says his initial reaction to the “states rights” lawsuits was that the actions amounted to political posturing. “I imagine in states where there is a lot of opposition to the federal health care plan that will garner some political points, but I would be surprised if these attorneys sincerely believe they are going to win.” Law says federal law trumps state law where interstate commerce is concerned. Lawmakers dealt with a similar issue in the 60’s when the civil rights act was passed. “Racial discrimination by restaurants, hotels etc. imposes a burden on interstate commerce by making it difficult for African Americans to travel from state to state. So is it a bigger reach for Congress to say that the fail of individuals to obtain private health insurance burdens interstate commerce? I don’t think it is.”
2010 March 22: Cheryl Block is quoted in a CNN.com article, “Health Care Reform Now Faces Senate challenge” regarding the healthcare reconciliation bill which the House bounced back to the Senate to sign off on or challenge any changes in the language. “It could get all messy and could go on forever if they threw up amendment after amendment,” said Cheryl Block, a law professor at Washington University’s School of Law. “Theoretically, it should only take 20 hours, but it will likely take longer because Republicans have things up their sleeve.”
2010 March 18: Gregory Magarian is quoted in the St. Louis Business Journal online article, “Apex Seeks U.S. Supreme Court Review on $150M Hartford Cleanup.” Concerning Clayton, Missouri-based Apex Oil Company which is fighting a 7th Circuit decision backing the EPA’s cleanup mandate as contrary to an earlier 6th Circuit opinion, this split decision is a “foot in the door” for Apex, said Greg Magarian, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis, but he said there’s no assurance that the high court “even with a split between the two circuits” will take up the matter and that “the Supreme Court is going to take a look at that carefully and make a judgment whether the split warrants a full briefing and taking up their time.”
2010 March 16: Cheryl Block commented in a United Press International article “Health Care Puts House Democrats on the Line.” The article, which was picked up by CNN, discussed whether or not the House should vote for the Senate bill trusting that changes will be made during the reconciliation process. “If the House is going to do this, they are going to have to vote for the Senate bill, holding their nose and trusting that in fact they are going to go through this reconciliation process, and they are going to get the fixes that they are looking for to the legislation,” said Cheryl Block, a professor of law and a budget policy expert at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. Those “fixes” are a part of a package of changes to the Senate bill that President Obama proposed last month. The idea is for the House to pass the Senate bill, wait for Obama to sign it into law, and then vote separately on Obama’s proposal.
2010 March 16: Carl Minzner authored an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times about growing popular pressure pushes for deep reform of the Chinese household registration, or hukou, system. "Chinese authorities need to directly address popular calls for change and deepen their reforms. These are not demands by foreign governments. They are earnest calls by the Chinese public -- citizens deeply concerned about the growing inequality in their cities." [view article]
2010 March 15: Cheryl Block is quoted in a Talk Radio News Service online (University of New Mexico) article, “Senate Parliamentarian Will Be Busy During Reconciliation Vote, Expert Says” about the congressional health care bill. Cheryl Block, J.D., a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis, says she expects Republicans to raise quite a few points of order during the vote on the health care reconciliation bill. Block says current Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin will be busy during this process, as he is required to make rulings on each point of order. She also went on to say that the reconciliation process has a number of procedural limitations, including the “Byrd rule,” which allows points of order to be raised. Summing up the Senate Republicans probable maneuverings, Block states that they will come up with points of order challenges during the vote on health care.
2010 March 11: Merton Bernstein is quoted in The AARP Bulletin Today article, “Your Financial Future: Entitlement Defined” about entitlement to Social Security, Medicare and veterans’ benefits. While some people view entitlement in a derogatory sense, Merton Bernstein, a professor emeritus of law at Washington University in St. Louis, puts it this way: “The whole notion of entitlement has been perverted to make it sound like a bunch of layabouts saying, ‘Oh, government, send me some money.’ The meaning of entitlement is that, if one meets the criteria laid out, one has a legal claim. That’s what it means.” He went on to explain. “What we have accomplished in law is to give people enforceable rights,” Bernstein says. “You have a right to a disability insurance payment. You have a right to Social Security, as long as you meet the statutory requirement.”
2010 March 10: Andrew Martin co-authored an op-ed in The New York Times about Senate filibusters. He wrote, “Getting rid of dual-tracking would require the minority to make careful choices about what to obstruct, and when to obstruct it. As Senator Bunning's unsuccessful solo stand against jobless benefits showed, even Republicans have limited tolerance when it comes to stalling legislation for reasons that lack popular support. After all, filibusters historically broke when public opinion went against the Senate minority. If the Democratic leadership eliminated the dual-track system, serial, single-issue filibusters would give us an opportunity to see where the country actually stands on issues like health care reform and financial regulation – and where the Senate should stand.”
2010 March 4: Karen Tokarz commented in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on the law school hosting the regional rounds of ABA’s Representation in Mediation Competition. She views the competition as part of "a larger movement that is fostering a new professional role for lawyers – lawyers who are zealous and passionate but also focused on solving disputes more creatively, efficiently and fairly and in ways that preserve relationships as much as possible."
2010 February 26: Peter Joy discussed the overburdened public defender system in the Columbia Daily Tribune, claiming that the crisis is a disconnect between the promise of constitutional rights and the reality of what public defenders can deliver. Joy said that if public defenders cannot fulfill ethical obligations to their clients because they're dealing with too many cases, “you might as well tear up the Constitution.”
2010 February 23: David Law commented in the Salt Lake Tribune on a Utah House committee approving a set of bills aimed at letting the state seize control of federal land, agreeing that the bills would be deemed unconstitutional and stating that "it would be inconceivable that Congress lacks the power to protect its own land."
2010 February 21: David Law commented in the Salt Lake Tribune on the discussion of federal versus states’ rights. Referring to the potential passing of a bill that would block a state from implementing federal health insurance reform and a proposal to seize federal land using eminent domain power, Law stated "They would raise some fairly serious constitutional red flags."
2010 February 14: Katherine Goldwasser commented in the Columbia Missourian on the case of Chuck Erickson’s recanted testimony concerning the murder of Kent Heitholdt and implication of Ryan Ferguson’s participation in the crime. Regarding a court’s view of recanted testimonies, Goldwasser commented that "they're very disfavored. The law is really inhospitable to the claim that recanted testimony should result in a new trial." She stated that admitting recanted testimony into evidence is "putting the rabbit in the hat." Goldwasser also explained that Erickson's recantation may not be viewed as credible enough to warrant a new trial because "he was on the stand, he was cross-examined, the jury heard his testimony," and thus appellate courts may rule that Ferguson already had a fair trial since the defense already had a chance to discredit Erickson's story. She pointed out that any cases with recanted testimony that have ended with exoneration usually have something else going for them, such as the case of Josh Kezer, who was recently released after serving 16 years for a murder he didn't commit.
2010 February 11: C.J. Larkin was involved in a public hearing discussing the Kirkwood mediation agreement and quoted in the Webster-Kirkwood Times. Addressing a crowd, Larkin described writing the agreement as "a hybrid process," where the idea was "to begin it like a dialog and then end as a mediated agreement." Larkin additionally brought students with her to act as resource personnel for the mediation committee and for the Department of Justice Community Relations Service, and commented that the students "found it some of the most engaging work they've ever done," and that "they probably won't do anything so interesting again after they become ordinary lawyers."
2010 February 9: Neil Richards commented on saggy pants laws in FindingDulcinea, stating, “It's an interesting question whether these laws would violate the First Amendment as currently understood… Although lawmakers may look at saggy pants in terms of indecent exposure, they can also be a form of ‘expression of identity through clothing.’” But, Richards added, “Given the murky government power to enact indecent exposure laws, I'd be hesitant to call all saggy pants laws categorically unconstitutional under current doctrine.”
2010 January 21: C. J. Larkin discusses the law school's Dispute Resolution Program's work with Kirkwood residents and officials in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: "Kirkwood Expects to OK Agreement Aimed at Improving Community Relations." An agreement intended to improve community relations in the wake of the 2008 City Hall shootings in Kirkwood is expected to be signed tonight by the City Council and members of a team that has looked at the issue for more than a year. The document is termed a mediation agreement and was developed by the team with help from moderators William Whitcomb of the U.S. Department of Justice and C.J. Larkin with the dispute resolution program at the Washington University School of Law. Mayer Art McDonnell said, "I really appreciate the leadership shown by Reverend Bennett and Mike Brown during this process, and of course all the help Bill Whitcomb and C.J. Larkin have provided. It hasn't always been easy, but when people meet and talk in good faith it's possible to move past our differences and find common ground."
2010 January 18: Rebecca Dresser contributed to a discussion in EDGE (Boston, MA) of gay parenting issues and addressed LGBT couples with a warning that every necessary precaution should be taken when pursuing surrogacy. Dresser commented that "Dealing with a good quality agency that conducts rigorous psychological and health screening and is diligent about securing informed consent provides protections. The problems for gay couples would arise when state officials or state law, or both, have a narrow-minded view of parental qualifications that would regard same-sex couples as less suitable parents."
2010 January 13: Hillary Sale contributed in an article on SmartMoney.com to the discussion of banks’ manipulative practices to make huge profits at the expense of ordinary Americans. She said this is a recurring problem that has been around since the 1929 stock market crash, explaining that "Some of the concerns were very similar to concerns today - that the bankers were fat cats, that they had made out like bandits, that they were paying bonuses when people were hungry."
2010 January 11: Peter Joy commented in the Joplin Globe on Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce’s decision to review over 1,000 cases and dismiss dozens of pending cases related to the police misconduct of seven officers. He stated, “I applaud her. If that's what she's going to do, then that's really a commitment to making sure that no one's been wrongfully convicted."
2010 January 8: Peter Wiedenbeck commented in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on Timothy Hendron’s class-action lawsuit against his employer and Fidelity Management Trust Co., which concerns 12,800 employees who were allegedly being victimized by excessive fees charged in their 401(k) retirement plans. In regards to the suit, Wiedenbeck noted that the law forbids employers from retaliating against employees who file suits such as this one and then stated, "Once divided among the participants, it's going to be a relatively small recovery. The big stake benefits the lawyers." Wiedenbeck also stated, "We've seen a lot of action on this specific issue in the last couple of years. The central theme is that, given the amount of investment involved, the charges were unreasonably high." He added that it's still unclear how courts will deal with such claims.
2010 January 4: Daniel Mandelker comments in the St. Louis Business Journal on the legal aspects of development projects proposed for Richmond Heights, Missouri: Waterhout Construction Gets Stay on Condemnation. Missouri Court of Appeals Justice Kenneth Romines granted a preliminary order barring St. Louis County Circuit Court from continuing a condemnation action against Rene Bell and her Waterhout Construction Co. "Writs of prohibition, while not frequently used, go back centuries and allow an appellate court to stop a lower court or other quasi-judicial body from exercising its authority," said Daniel Mandelker, a professor of law at Washington University School of Law.
2009 December 13: Greg Magarian discussed, in the Belleville News-Democrat, the issue of politician Will McGaughy allegedly buying votes with $2 bills. In response to an inquiry about potential prosecution of McGaughy for fraud, Magarian stated, "You don't want to use too heavy a hand because it very quickly crosses over into the zone of protected campaign activity and free speech. It's a hard thing to get a handle on." He later added that McGaughy’s actions were likely within the law, since the money belonged to McGaughy and was sent with a Christmas letter, explaining that "There's nothing wrong with giving people money at Christmas, and so that gets into the fine grain of the law and I have no idea how that comes out, but it's a fun thing to think about, a fun problem. I don't have instinctively a big problem with it."
2009 December 7: Rebecca Dresser commented on religious exemptions and state vaccination laws, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. She said the fact that most states allow religious exemptions for mandatory vaccinations showed that "the public health benefits of the vaccine are outweighed by the desire to show respect for religious beliefs." Dresser said it would be "offensive" to impose the H1N1 vaccine on particular communities based on religious belief. "There's always a desire to keep this voluntary," she said.
2009 December 1: On KTVI-TV and FOX2now.com, Thomas Schweich justified President Obama’s troop surge decision in Afghanistan by stating that, "The nine-eleven attacks were planned from Afghanistan. Attacks on U.S. embassies in Kenya were planned from Afghanistan. It is a place where if it is allowed a safe haven for terrorists, they will be able to plan attacks on us. And if we can defeat them there, it makes it much more difficult for them to launch attacks on us. I think it's as simple as that."
2009 November 13: Peter Joy discussed the confession of an imprisoned fake lawyer who admitted swindling former fellow prisoners, according to St. Louis Post-Dispatch. With respect to the inflexibility of the state appeals deadline Joy said, "I'd have to say the person would be stuck with what happened."
2009 November 13: Leila Sadat contributed to The JURIST Op-Ed Forum arguing that after the failure of American legislative and diplomatic initiatives opposing the International Criminal Court, “The time has come for the U.S. to support and cooperate with the ICC. The legislative and diplomatic initiatives against the ICC have failed and have only served to isolate the US … There is added urgency for US participation due to the ICC Review Conference to be held next year in Uganda.” The piece was co-authored by David Crane, former Chief Prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone. [View op-ed]
2009 November 11: Greg Magarian commented in the Riverfront TImes on possible legal challenges to the local smoking ban, noting that equal protection only applies to individuals and not businesses. Magarian said, "The only way equal protection really works is if you can demonstrate that you are member of a suspect class, such as race or gender discrimination… The notion that one kind of company can say I'm being regulated differently from another company and that's unfair has been strongly repudiated for decades without contradiction. There's just nothing there."
2009 November 11: Andrew Martin is mentioned in the Wall Street Journal for his research on techniques used to compare current judicial behaviors and actions with those from the past. “Prof. Quinn and Andrew Martin of Washington University’s law school used the time-machine techniques to track judges’ ideological evolution and compare them to each other.”
2009 October 15: Michael Greenfield discussed how issues with getting credit can make it difficult for people to purchase houses in certain areas in The St. Louis American. The article noted that when houses deteriorate, people start selling their houses at any price. He said, “It’s a downward spiral of the health of a community.”
2009 October 11: Rebecca Dresser discussed in vitro fertilization in The New York Times Online Blog. Dresser explained that there “are clear health and safety reasons to set limits on the number of embryos transferred in I.V.F. But designing the proper oversight system to address this problem isn’t easy.”
2009 October 11: Peter Joy discussed the issue of St. Louis' repeat drunken drivers often avoiding DWI convictions in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Joy said he believes that when courts give someone a second SIS, it is usually by accident, but he suspects that prosecutors sometimes knowingly ignore the law in order to speed up plea deals. Joy stated that such action is “much more problematic from a public safety perspective.”
2009 September 29: Mae Quinn discussed redefining the court process for drug offenders in the Danville Register Bee. Quinn said, “It creates a new role without a change in the legal standards for lawyers.” She added that defense attorneys have a duty to “zealously represent their client” and serve as advocates for the defendant, but the drug court model asks them to be a team player instead.
2009 September 29: Thomas Schweich discussed the current situation in Afghanistan on CBC.
2009 September 21: Merton C. Bernstein discussed why Massachusetts has a low rate of uninsured in CNNMoney.com. Bernstein said, “The reason for that is that this is a very high wage area. Also this is a heavy population at college and university, which typically, although they may not pay so well, has a higher medical insurance than the general population.” The article notes that Florida, which has a large elderly population, also had a high percentage of uninsured, at 20.8%. Bernstein said this is because Florida is a “low wage state” where insurance is unavailable to many workers.
2009 September 13: Adjunct Michael Downey discussed a lawyer who was fined and reprimanded for his online posts in The New York Times. Downey said, “When you become an officer of the court, you lose the full ability to criticize the court.” He made similar comments in The Wall Street Journal Blog.
2009 September 11: Peter Joy commented on a lawsuit by Brown & Crouppen against its former associate in the Missouri Lawyers Media. Joy said, “This could be nothing but a contract dispute. But if it’s found that he made misrepresentations to the client about who represented them – that violates an ethical rule to communicate truthfully to clients. If he was not being truthful to the firm, that relates specifically to the ethics rule regarding truthfulness to third parties.”
2009 August 30: Katherine Goldwasser discussed the cases of battered women who will appeal for leniency before the Missouri parole board in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Goldwasser said, “There are aggravating, mitigating circumstances that don’t excuse you for killing someone, but make it more understandable.”
2009 August 26: Hillary Sale commented on corporate enforcement cases and the settlement with Bank of America Corp in Reuters. Sale said, “It is absolutely appropriate for a judge to question the amount and the context of a settlement. In theory this increases the SEC’s negotiating power. The SEC can say we can’t settle because the courts won’t let us.”
2009 August 21: Hillary Sale commented on the action to hold third parties accountable in securities fraud cases in the Chicago Tribune. Sale said, “Certainly if lawyers or accountants or bankers or other third parties are actively engaged in promoting a fraud or assisting a fraud, they, too, ought to be liable.” She added, “Securities laws rely on those third parties to review the merits of transactions. If those people don’t do their job, then we have a major gap in enforcement.”
2009 August 20: Kathleen Clark participated in the online debate over the call to fire John C. Yoo, professor at UC Berkeley, in The New York Times Blog. In an excerpt from the blog entry, she notes, “Professor Yoo should have an opportunity to explain his actions and the choices he made as a lawyer. If, after an investigation, the law school and the university find that he violated his professional obligations when he served as a lawyer in the Justice Department, I believe that it would be appropriate for them to take action against Professor Yoo.”
2009 August 18: Kimberly Norwood commented on the life and example of Margaret Bush Wilson in The St. Louis American. Norwood said Wilson was an inspiration for her. “She had such a wonderful life,” she said. “What she did in this small place changed the nation. She was an incredible motivator who was soft and gentle though she was pushing you to do something.”
2009 August 13: Thomas Schweich, Washington University’s ambassador-in-residence, gave an interview on BBC World News Radio in which he discussed the drug trade in Afghanistan. He also discussed the counternarcotics program in Afghanistan on BBC Radio the World Tonight.
2009 August 11: Hillary Sale commented in The Chicago Tribune article “SEC Takes Sword to Shield Protecting Lawyers from Investors’ Suits.” A U.S. senator and the Securities and Exchange Commission have sought to hold lawyers, accountants, and other third parties accountable in cases of securities fraud. The moves would puncture some of the immunity granted to such professionals that the U.S. Supreme Court has reinforced in recent decisions. Sale, who supports the bill, noted, “Certainly if lawyers or accountants or bankers or other third parties are actively engaged in promoting a fraud or assisting a fraud, they, too, ought to be liable,” she said. “Securities laws rely on those third parties to review the merits of transactions. If those people don't do their job, then we have a major gap in enforcement.”